Lumiere Paints vs Extender with Pigments
  • Dear Anet,

    I hope you are doing well ! I need your advice: I have a few Lumiere Gold/silver paints. Recently, i tried to get a shiny metallic blue/silver color by mixing Metallic Silver paint with a regular dark blue paint but when mixing i ended up with a pale shiny blue. Is it because your silver paints have a white base paint?

    Now i am thinking that if i want to get a shiny blue silver effect, i might need to use a dark blue paint and mix in your silver pigments with it. Or perhaps just your colorless extender with metallic blue pigments?

    Im just trying to understand how your products work because i have never used the colorless extender Or the pigments. Could you help me please?

    Thanks a ton!
    AK
  • Yes, the silver does have some white in it in addition to the silver. You can avoid this by mixing from scratch using neopaque flowable extender # 579 and pearl ex silver. You need about a 10% pigment in extender to get a full metallic.
  • Ah i thought as much. Here are my questions:

    1.Do your golds have white too?
    2. If im screen printing, what mesh count do you recommend for lumiere paints? And what if i mixed my own metallic just with pearl ex silver and extender- just trying to understand how i could get nice metallics with screen printing.
    3. Does your Lumiere paint range of metallic have more metallic pigment than your metallic range of screen printing inks?

    Thank you so much for this help! I use a bunch of your products and your advice help me plan better.

    AK
  • 1. Gold does not have any white in it.
    2. I wouldn't use anything finer than 230. Super sparkle will likely not screen well as the pigment size is very big.
    3. Lumiere has tons more metallics than screen inks. We do have silver, gold, solar gold, and copper in screen ink. I would use the silver ink instead of lumiere if I had the choice.

    You can definitely make your own lumiere and or screen inks with the pearl ex. Start with 10% pigment and you can adjust from there. Using JSI screen ink extender is good or the neopaque extender which is the base for Lumiere as well.

    Here is a chart that shows the different pigment sizes for each pearl ex #. Obviously the smaller pigment size is easier to print. I would not suggest printing 652 macropearl. Anything over 60 is going to be difficult.

    Color # PARTICLE SIZE (in Microns)
    640 60
    641 60
    642 60
    643 60
    644 60
    645 60
    646 60
    647 60
    650 25
    651 100
    652 200
    653 48
    654 60
    655 100
    656 60
    657 100
    658 60
    659 48
    660 48
    661 48
    662 48
    663 60
    664 60
    665 48
    670 60
    671 60
    672 60
    673 60
    674 60
    680 48
    683 25
    684 25
    685 25
    686 25
    687 60
    688 25
    689 60
    691 60
    692 60
    693 60
  • Thanks so much ! This is very helpful :)

    Another qstn: If i want a glossy surface on denim after i have screen printed all over what product do you have for that? Would just extender by itself do the trick?

    Youre doing a wonderful job with this forum. Thanks again

    AK
  • Clear extender should make is slightly glossier if you did that as a final layer. Screen gloss on fabric is a little tricky as gloss is generally associated with brittleness and that is not good for clothing. I suppose we would consider the screen ink and extender semi-gloss.
  • Thanks. I have been reading a lot about the production processes of Hermes scarves and learned that they mix their pigments with binder and once silk screen printed, the silk is steamed for an hour. Im pretty sure that they dont use dye paste to print so im guessing its a pigment with binder and then its steam set.

    My question for you is: Whats the difference in the making of your screen ink and fabric paint (lumiere, neopaque etc)?

    Im guessing you start with the same pigments but the binders are different....Can you give me some explanation? My guess is that your fabric paint has an acrylic binder but your screen ink does not.

    Thanks a ton :)
    AK
  • Well this is interesting because the process you are describing does sound like it is a dye process. I would guess that it is. The steaming for an hour is classic silk dye time in the steamer. Pigments are usually not set in this way, as they are supposed to be set with dry heat. Usually 350 degrees for 30 sec or so.

    As far as our paints are concerned. They all set with the above listed heat. You are right in that they do used different binders, but they are all acrylic based.

    Sometimes the difference is in the hand of the binder, or how it makes the cloth feel different on the fabric once applied.

    Dye-na-flow, textile paint, and versatex screen ink all have the same binder, which makes the paint/ink very very soft on fabric once dried. Dye na flow feels like nothing, and the other two you can just barely tell they are there. In this instance, the main difference between them is actually in the thickeners used as dye na flow is as thin as water, textile is a normally viscous acrylic paint, and versatex has a much thicker consistency of screen ink with a heavier duty thickener. Thickeners wash out at the end, and you are left with 3 very soft paints.

    Lumiere and Neopaque use a difference binder which feel stiffer, but is also much more durable than the paints above. They have to be tougher to hold the metallic pigments especially in the Lumiere. It is really really tough to wash out the Lumiere out for this reason, and also this particular binder self-cures, so you do not need to heat set if you leave it 72 hrs. The textile, dye na flow, and versatex won't do that.

    The binder in the JSI professional ink is the toughest of all 3. It is a really really special one that is highly durable and highly adhesive and is also scuff proof. It too self cures and does not require a heat set. It can be set with the 350 conditions if needed before the 72 hrs. It also has a binder that does not need much water to function, which is why you can print it easily on plastic and vinyl without beading up or being repelled. This is the most special binder and has all sorts of properties that the others don't have. It is really tough, but you can also feel the binder more than the others, and that is why it should go on very thinly like in screen printing. If you leave this one on very thick, the inside will basically never dry, so it should only be applied very thinly.

    Versatex, textile, dye-na-flow strength = utmost softness to final product and transparency

    Lumiere and Neopaque strength = durability, opacity, self-curing

    JSI professional screen ink strength = versatility, true multi-surface adhesion, scuff proof, opacity, self curing

  • Thanks again! I saw the Hermes scarf making process on blogs and some bloggers say that Hermes says they use pigment with binder, other bloggers say they use vegetable dye and steam it so i dont really know what they use. Here are the 2 links in case youre curious too!

    http://fdmag.com/2012/03/the-making-of-the-worlds-most-coveted-square-hint-its-silk-twill.html/
    https://www.lollipuff.com/blog/427/the-fascinating-story-about-how-hermes-scarves-are-made

    In India, i do know that printers use pigment colors with binders (also some kerosene! ) and later steam set. So im not a 100% sure whether steaming is not needed when pigments (non dyes) are used because in India they have been doing that for many years. I asked an artisan in India and he said the same thing.

    When i use dyes on silk, i steam set. Just not sure whether the same methods are used globally.
  • I think sometimes the way people speak is not so precise. People have an intuitive idea about the differences between dye and paint, but may not explicitly know the difference.

    We talked it over here, and the boss says that he is 99% sure they use dyes in a paste. I agree with him, and there is a softness involved and a transparency to the color that would be hard to match with paints, but maybe isn't impossible.

    Setting pigments with steam is possible, but is usually not advisable as it can pop the color right off the surface as compared to dry heat. It seems unusual to want steams penetrating properties on something that has been painted.

    I really think that such a traditional garment maker would be using dyes and steam.
  • Thanks a ton - what you said makes sense!

    I dug around some more and the write ups in french had more info- the 3 paragraphs below are translated (from an online translator) from 3 different sources... just wanted to share this with you-

    Source 1:This is unquestionably the particular sign of the squares Hermes the colors. They are multiple, intense. It is here that we are preparing, in the kitchen to colors everywhere pans, spatulas, of mixers and scales. By a mix of water, natural gum and pigments, the heads of the workshop are able to create seventy-five thousand different shades from forty colors mothers. This nuancier is exclusively the great pride of the House. Red Erion, black finesse, polar blue,neutral gray, blue Alizée, yellow xylene..., every nuance has its number. Once the colors are prepared,they are assigned to the corresponding framework. And the printing can begin.

    Source 2: But to be completely fair, several steps still have place after this impression of colors : take off, drying, cooking to the vapor, washing to remove vegetable gums present in the colors and soften the fabric, removal of a film of a secret product to make the texture even more silky and finally roulottage, operation which is to obtain its lovely edges rolled in gently rolling in both directions for 45 minutes the four sides of the square.

    Source 3: Then come the engraving and printing. "Create the colors, it is of the kitchen: you boil the pot, continues Kamel Hamadou. For example 22 grams of yellow more than 10 grams of red More 1 liter of Solvent plus a little boiling water. It stops when it is al dente, at the end of approximately seven minutes. There, we adds Plant gums to thicken."

  • Sounds like acid dye to me?